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Talk:Easter eggs (Origins)
Inspiration Sources and True Easter Eggs There is a difference, people. Dwarven architecture. NOT an easter egg, unless it happens to contain a recognisable motif of some external lore. Just because it's made of stone and under ground it does not make it an easter egg. /headdesk The Maker and God. NOT an easter egg. Biblical references are not unique little butterflies. This is like saying Orlais is a nod to the French, which while true, is still not a blasted easter egg. It's an inspiration source. The bible is too culturally diluted to be an accountable easter egg anymore. Jean D'arc and Andraste - Unless Andraste yelled out the exact same final words as Jean D'arc: NOT an easter egg. It's a source. Major One: NO MORE BLACK FOX easter eggs. He's based off a trope; therefore none of the stuff everyone is insisting will ever be justifiable. Enough is enough, already. Please get this right. I'm going to delete/move inappropriate easter eggs. Sources should be listed under their respective entries, not just dumped here when it tickles your fancy. --Lilkam 16:31, December 5, 2009 (UTC) Entries that need more Citation "Duncan is a nod to King Duncan in Macbeth who was betrayed by someone loyal to the Kingdom looking to gain power." I believe this is too ambigious. Duncan is unfortunately a rather common name. I could also say if an NPC is called John then it is a nod to Huxley's Brave New World. Now, forgive me if I'm wrong, but someone loyal to the kingdom is hardly looking to gain power. I never actually thought Loghain was after power, he was just trying to get a job done - ends justifies the means etc. I never equated Macbeth and crazy wife with Loghain and crazy bit- daughter. More than willing to reinsert this easter egg, if everyone really thinks it belongs there. For myself, it is a very shaky claim. I agree, this is ambiguous. I think it should remain in the limbo of 'speculative entries'. To be honest, the first thing I think about when I hear the name 'Duncan' is the Dune series of books ('Duncan Idaho'). - "There is a codex entry about the old gods and that there is only one god left (the Maker). This might be a reference to the Bible for there is only one god instead of many like many civilizations claim but it also might be a reference to the "War of Souls" series by Margaret Weiss and Tracy Hickman (the creators of Dragonlance)." Pantheons and monotheism is hardly unique to Dragon Age or War of Souls. I think this requires more detail to be justifiable. - "There is a reference to Husks within some dialogue" Which dialogue? Where can said dialogue be found? If I said the Macdonald logo can be seen on pavements in Denerim, would you believe me? Sources, people, sources. - I have removed this: "The music that plays in the taverns of Ferelden is the same as the stock music that plays in the taverns in NWN1" temporarily because there is not enough detail supplied. NWN1 has 4 tavern music on stock. Which one? And which tavern of Fereldan? The one in Recliffe does not change music, the The Pearl does not play music at all, The Gnawed Noble/Tapsters has its own unique track. I wanted to link in youtube for comparison until I realised the source seems to be a fabricated lie. If you know what this refers to, link the music tracks and specify the tavern so we can justify this claim. Otherwise it is complete baloney. - --Lilkam 17:25, December 5, 2009 (UTC) - I can't really remember these places in DAO, but maybe someone else can. At two different places in the game different characters uses the words "...half-life..." and "...left for dead...". IIRC "half-life" is used at the Circle tower when talking with the demon that holds a templar hostage in an illusion. If anyone would like to add that or something that'd be cool, but I didn't write down where they were said and I'm not convinced they count as easter eggs. Do with this as you will. - -- 21:59, December 10, 2009 (UTC) And that'd be me, Kytio Haven Tombstones Although I know "In memory of the Lohs, forever frozen in never-ending winter nights." refers to NWN, I cannot grasp the meaning of it. I am guessing it must be a expansion pack that never got past planning but it's nothing I recognise. Or it's got something to do with Neverending Nights? I really don't know. Ideas, anyone? I am also thoroughly unconvinced that Cormac has anything to do with Cormick. There's not enough evidence to prove this at all. It's like saying Duncan of DAO is an easter egg reference to Duncan of The Sunken Flagon. HA. I motion for deletion. --Lilkam 11:30, November 17, 2009 (UTC) Also, there is a tombstone with a reference to Aluvian Darkstar ("who fight 4 years"), she was a sample character you can choose when starting a new adventure in Neverwinter Nigths. --Roberto 10:24 January 19, 2010, (UTC) Spain, Madrid Haven Could Haven be reference to Oblivions Hackdirt, a small, unfriendly town (the people eventually attack you and so on). Hackdirt itself is a reference to H.P. Lovecrafts work. There are certainly some similarities, but I don't really know whether that qualifies as Easter Egg. I agree, I had felt like I played through a scenario like that before, Hackdirt quest line requires investigation, dudes start spawning after you figure out the secret/kill somebody, everyone avoids questioning, your trying to rescue somebody and keep them alive, it follows a Religion gone wrong whose overall goal is to provide power to something(I think they're called the deep ones?) who will lead them to power, and Hackdirt was cut off from outside contact due to some sort of fight that led to incinerating the town. It's an obvious reference to something. Most of that is self explanatory but the Dragon desiring the ashes to be tainted to provide it power is like the deep ones. Kolgrim even says that nothing can stop her, not even the Imperium. If its not referencing Hackdirt, then whatever Hackdirt was based on is what Haven is referencing and it seems that it is this H.P. lovecraft dude. --FLaSHBaCK HaSH 22:02, December 20, 2009 (UTC). Haven could also be a reference to the town of Haven in Stephen King's Tommyknockers. All in all, I think Haven should stay here, unless a developer divulges that it is really a reference to some external lore. 17:17, January 13, 2010 (UTC)]] 17:15, January 13, 2010 (UTC) (changed IP to my login name, I did not notice at the time of editing the page that I was not logged in. Desyndra 17:17, January 13, 2010 (UTC) ) No Swimming Sign "*At the waterside in Redcliffe there is a sign saying "No Swimming". This may be a reference to the request that some players made for the game to feature swimming." This was removed in a recent edit by an unregistered individual and I see no reason why. As I cannot confirm nor deny either the existence of the sign nor whether or not such a request was made, I do not know if it was proper to remove this. Can someone confirm or deny? --Grayewolf - A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi - A precipice 18:05, November 15, 2009 (UTC) :I have no idea about the player requests, but the sign exists, and it does say that. I always thought it made sense to forbid swimming, what with a tower of crazy magic in the lake. You don't want to be eaten by a rock with a mouth, right? :D. Gah, forgot to sign. 08:53, November 16, 2009 (UTC) Ozammar Supported Harrowmount in the succession. Despite the Epic Fail easter egg, found another. Later on, as I was about to head to Arl Eamon's place, as I was leaving the Shaperate and passed that Crier, he said the following. "Harrowmount is the new king. Behelen (or however its spelt) looses the game" Anyone else get this one? Cypherdiaz 08:30, November 16, 2009 (UTC) Zombie Kitten I am not sure if it is worthwhile to mention that old forum in-jokehttp://forums.bioware.com/viewtopic.html?topic=520549&forum=84 has a reference when you speak to Danalhttp://img25.imageshack.us/img25/2070/zombiekitten.jpg in Lothering. You will receive it at the end of the dialogue with him just before tells you he doesn't have anything else to tell you. From what I remember, it is also random as I have gotten a reference about some noble woman buy a puppy each week. I think you can also get the reference from the dwarf merchant in the camp when you ask him about any rumours. Ah!!! I was looking for a Zombie Kitten reference!! Yes, yes. They told us we would see/hear some in-game. This is definitely a reference.--Selty 14:21, November 17, 2009 (UTC) BG: Gather Your Party How can this be a reference to Baldur's Gate when most of DnD-based or DnD-similar RPGs, which feature a party of selectable NPCs, ask the same thing? For example, from the top of my head, KotOR I and II. "When transitioning from one location to a next, a window will appear and ask if you wish to, "Gather your party and venture forth?" This is an obvious reference to Baldur's Gate I and II, when your player character attempted to leave an area without their companions." --Tenukkiut 14:21, November 11, 2009 (UTC) :Because BG1 and BG2 were infamous for annoying the crap out of players with the voice over on repeat "Gather your party, Gather your party" x10. If KotoR did it, it was probably a shout out to BG as well; it was just that "memorable" (seeing as KotoR is also done by Bioware, it is very likely). The biggest reason that it is a valid easter egg is that is it nearly word for word perfect with the old BG saying. That's not a coincidence, especially since DAO is supposed to be BG's spiritual successor. --Lilkam 09:32, November 17, 2009 (UTC) Leliana in the Cut scene with Sloth I can't be absolutely sure that this is a reference or not, but It certainly is similar. In the cut scene when Sloth puts the party to sleep, before the section of Fade, lost in dream. If Leliana is in your party, she will tell Sloth, "You have no power over me." For anybody who may have seen it, this is the Line from the movie "Labrynth" that the main character Sarah always forgets while rehearsing for her play. When she confronts the "Goblin King, (David Bowe)", she, of course, finally gets it right in order to save her brother. Do with it what you will, but the line is even delivered similarly.... --Crackerjaquebox 03:28, November 28, 2009 (UTC) :Most definitely, good one for remembering --Lilkam 05:03, November 29, 2009 (UTC) Cameo Cowl Has anyone read the description of the Cameo Cowl? It speaks of a stern looking woman with elven heritage and a note that says much better without the stuttering or something to that effect. I don't have the exact description but the name of the item and the description when I read it seemed to reference Jahiera and Khalid from the Baldur's Gate series. Does anyone else think so? --Rilaldan 17:36, December 2, 2009 (UTC) :The exact words of this description would help, but you may very well be right. See if you can dig it up. --Lilkam 16:31, December 5, 2009 (UTC) Since I don't have the item in my possession anymore I had to hunt down the description online. Here it is: "Every so often, a bolt of inspiration hits an inventor that subsequently propels a society forward into a new era. This was not one of those inventions. A small, enchanted medallion set into the front of this headwear was supposed to bear an image of the person dearest to the wearer's heart. However, at some point, likely in a domestic disagreement sparked by some idle fancy, the cameo was damaged, leaving the cowl forever displaying the image of a stern-looking woman of elven descent who stares out from the wearer's head. Still, other enchantments redeem the hood's utility, and a note tucked into an interior seam suggests a further upgrade made by the last owner: "Fixed! Much better without the stutter!"" Seems to be a throwback to Khalid and Jahiera, no? --Rilaldan 15:30, December 7, 2009 (UTC) :Incredibly difficult to determine for certain. The flavour detail of stuttering certainly does seem to add weight; it's quite unique, isn't it? Hmm, go ahead imo. --Lilkam 08:11, December 8, 2009 (UTC) Falling Up I can't remember the name of the dwarf in Orzammar that you run into and have this conversation with. But there's a nice little discussion with him about "falling up" because you're from the surface and he can't understand how anyone can live up there without falling into the sky. I believe this may be a reference to the poetry book "Falling Up" by Shel Silverstein, and the poem in it by the same title. "I triped on my shoelace And I fell up- Up to the roof tops Up past the tree tops Up over the mountians Up where the colors Blend into the sounds But it got me so dizzy When I looked around I got sick to my stomach And I threw down " --Crackerjaquebox 15:43, December 4, 2009 (UTC) :The Idle Dwarf in dust town does mention "falling into the sky" - but I think this is rather too ambiguous. If he quoted the poem directly or if the verse said something about holding on with your toes, I would agree, but it seems only the gist is common and that could mean anything. No fish :( --Lilkam 16:31, December 5, 2009 (UTC) The Black Fox? What about Zorro? After all, Zorro is Spanish for "Fox" therefore his name in English is "The Fox" and he DOES wear black. :Not enough :p I'll admit I barely recall the plotline of Zorro; read the codex entry for the Black Fox and decide if that follows the synopsis of Zorro. If not, then we're just speculating bananas where there are no bananas. --Lilkam 16:31, December 5, 2009 (UTC) ::It's not uncommon to have a folk hero named after a cunning animal. I love all of the "maybes" noted for that one. Maybe a parody, but doesn't seem like an egg. Alright, dude. I don't know who you are, but that little stunt you pulled is classified as vandalism. Lay off. --Lilkam 08:16, December 9, 2009 (UTC) Correspondence Interruptus Don't see how this counts as an egg. You simply need to understand the original phrase to get the word play. :But aren't Easter Eggs exactly that? ;) Still, I see your point, but it's obscure enough that I think people would appreciate it. --Lilkam 08:27, December 9, 2009 (UTC) :It's more trivia than an Easter Egg methinks.--Selty 04:59, December 10, 2009 (UTC) :Got me thinking about the exact definition of an easter egg. (Why yes, I am at work, why do you ask) Overlord Wiki declares it as: "A virtual Easter egg is an intentional hidden message, in-joke or feature in an object such as a movie, book, CD, DVD, computer program, web page or video game." In this case, I think Correspondence Interruptus is definitely an egg. WoWWiki has actually divided "easter eggs" from "trivia and references" although I think this is a bit too much for our little Dragon Age (at this stage). --Lilkam 07:36, December 10, 2009 (UTC) Wade's Emporium I'm curious as to whether it may be more than coincidence that Wade & Herren of Wade's Emporium seem to bear more than a passing resemblance to Fallout 3's Flak & Shrapnel respectively? Apart from the "gay armourers" element, the two characters do look fairly similar to their FO3 counterparts, if indeed that's what they are, though in the case of the latter AFAIK only Flak is known to be gay. It could be mere coincidence which is why I haven't added it to the page itself, but I think it's a pretty big coincidence if so. --vom 04:04, December 10, 2009 (UTC) :Never played F3 and just from looking at their images I think that's an easter egg. Far too similar to be a mere coincidence. He's even got the handle bar mustache! ;) I'd avoid stating Wade and Harren as being lovers however; they give off the vibe but it's never confirmed. --Lilkam 07:54, December 10, 2009 (UTC) ::That's also the case with Flak & Shrapnel, which is sometimes assumed but never stated, at least to the best of my knowledge: there was quite a lot of bickering about it. I'm still wavering slightly over the idea of including it in the article, though given the aforementioned details I'm not sure what it'll take to convince me! --vom 12:03, December 10, 2009 (UTC) What's an Easter Egg? I've been thinking about what's an Easter egg, what's trivia, and what's just a plain coincidence. Sometimes I'm worried that people see this page as a place to deposit every random thing which, maybe, possibly, just might be a reference to a book, play, game they once read, saw, played (though you've been doing a good job of keeping an eye on this Lilkam). I think it might be worth our while to come up with what we want our wiki's definition of Easter eggs to be to keep this page on the straight and narrow. Here's what I think. This page should be solely for easter eggs , hidden in jokes, which are clearly hidden in-jokes like "In one of the Denerim taverns, there is a red robed woman named Edwina. This is a reference to Edwin, from Baldur's Gate 2, and his rather unfortunate transformation". If it's only a "maybe" it should go. And something like "Leliana's archnemesis, Marjolaine, strongly resembles Jennifer Garner. That is fitting, considering her character from the series Alias, Sidney Bristow, was also an assassin", seems like it is only personal opinion and doesn't belong on the page. What do others think? Loleil 08:14, December 10, 2009 (UTC) :I'm inclined to agree, for all a newcomer's opinion is worth! The page should be reserved for easter eggs only, otherwise it risks becoming cluttered and the value of the genuine easter eggs somewhat diluted. If it's not clear if something's a genuine easter egg or simply a coincidence or opinion, perhaps it should go on the talk page first to gain some form of consensus: the previous section, Wade's Emporium being an example of what I mean, since I'm uncomfortable about making assumptions without soliciting further opinions. So anything that looks a bit iffy should perhaps be moved to the talk page until such a time as a more compelling and objective background is provided. --vom 12:03, December 10, 2009 (UTC) ::I would love to set some basic rules for this, such as: each Easter Egg needs two points as proof and at least one other person to agree with both pieces of evidence. The idea of cracking down harder is appealing; I think we've been too lenient about maybes. But I also think maybes are inevitable; like the Wade one above us - it's very convincing, so we shouldn't be so quick to rule those out completely. ::At the very least each Easter Egg needs a good link, preferably two - one to the relevant DAO item and one to the uh... thing in question. The idea, after all, is to convince the unbeliever that what you claim is true. ::Once we've set up the rules for this page, we can stop babysitting it so much. If people can't follow them; don't provide adequate proof and a relevant link, it just gets deleted. --Lilkam 12:39, December 10, 2009 (UTC) :::That sounds like a good starting point Lilkam, I'll throw up the ones I'm iffy about and we can see if we can use them as test cases for our rules. Just a quick note about how I feel about name trivia. If it shares a name with something that has a clear history with BioWare or Dragon Age, like Gax'Kang, then it's an Easter egg. If it shares a name with and has a strong similarity with something else it is trivia and can go at the bottom of the page it refers to. If it just shares a name and only a passing resemblance to the topic in question, it goes. Why not just go along with the definition of 'Easter Egg' from Wikipedia? 'A virtual Easter egg is an intentional hidden message, in-joke or feature in an object such as a movie, book, CD, DVD, computer program, web page or video game.' Also, 'an in-joke (also known as an 'in joke' or 'inside joke') is a joke whose humor is clear only to those people who are "inside" a social group, occupation or other community of common understanding; an esoteric joke. It is only humorous to those who know the situation behind it.' Proving that it is an 'intentional hidden message' will always be difficult unless you can ask the developers to confirm every one of them so we should discard that part of the definition. I think the scope of trivia in this wiki should be limited to minutiae related to Dragon Age: Origins itself such as 'how many skulls are in Morrigan's room in Flemeth's hut?'. Things that appear in the game and may be regarded as trivia in connection with a movie, another game or any topics OUTSIDE the Dragon Age Universe could be tagged as Easter Eggs because their presence will be amusing for the group of people who are familiar with the underlying subject. All in all, DA trivia should be something that could be confirmed simply by playing DA:O, without any external knowledge, while identifying an Easter Egg should be linked to some 'external' knowledge. Candidates for deletion *The last preset face for the human female looks suspiciously like Safiya from MotB. The resemblance is remarkable, especially when choosing a mage. Personal opionion. I don't really see a resemblance except for being bald * A character named Sarel at the Dalish Camp will recite a poem for you if you ask about the history of the Dalish Elves. This is a reference to Mass Effect's companion, Ashley, who was also voiced by Kimberly Brooks and had a penchant for reciting poetry. The voice of the assistant to the Dalish Elven keeper of knowledge also uses the same voice as Ashley in Mass Effect. Neither a character reciting a poem, nor another voice actor being used in two BioWare games seems like an Easter egg. *The Summer Sword is likely a reference to "the Sommerswerd," a unique weapon belonging to the main character of the classic choose-your-own adventure novels "Lone Wolf." Trivia that can go on The Summer Sword, where it already exists *There is a book you can read in your codex entitled Adventures of the Black Fox that is based on Robin Hood. This could also be intended as a nod to Oblivion in which the leader of the thieves guild was the "Gray Fox". In addition, this may be a reference to the film The Court Jester . Another school of thought suggests this is refers to Zorro but these are all speculations around a common theme and are meaningless to extrapolate upon. Seems contentious and a reference or use of a common trope isn't an Easter egg to me. *Another possible nod to Lord of Rings can be found in the name of Lothering itself - L'''(ord) '''O(f) The Ring(s) ...though this could just be pareidolia in action. Too speculative. *The helmet "Helm of the Deep" might be a reference to Helm's Deep from Lord of the Rings. Trivia that can go at the bottom of * Sten, who is of "Giant" size, tells you that he was jailed for killing an innocent farmhold (including children), waited until the guards came, and did not resist arrest. This could be a reference to Stephen King's The Green Mile. Too speculative. Even if true, drawing inspiration from something isn't an Easter egg. *Similarly, the sword Oathkeeper is likely a reference to the sword of the same name in A Song of Ice and Fire. Amusingly enough, Duncan's Shield also plays a part in the series, although to claim it as an Easter egg would be shaky footing indeed. Part one is okay. Not sure what Duncan's shield is about. * The iron ring that is commonly found has a description being a serpent devouring its own tail, an ancient symbol known as Ouroboros. This could be a nod to the ring worn by Aes Sedai in the series "Wheel of Time" written by Robert Jordan. In the series the ring is golden and of a serpent biting its own tail. The ring itself is a symbol of eternity and time itself. The snake eating its tail is used by other media too. * Morrigan may be a reference to Morgan le Fay, a character in Arthurian legends who is also a powerful sorceress and is also speculated to be connected to the Irish goddess Morrigan We know David Gaider got the name from a friend. *At the tavern in Redcliffe the bartender's name is Lloyd. This is the bartender's name fromStephen King's "The Shining." Not a strong enough similarity. *When using the Suave voice-set, a Player Character able to detect traps will sometimes exclaim "It's a trap!" This is more than likely a reference to Admiral Ackbar from Star Wars Episode VI: Return of the Jedi, whose best-known line has become a widespread internet meme. I'm not convinced the phrase is unique to Ackbar *During the "The Urn of Sacred Ashes" Quest the so called Guardian, who has been guarding the urn for "a very long time", and the fact that you "cannot remove the urn from its resting place" in addition to the gauntlet, and especially the "Bridge Riddle", are possible references to "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade". Here the Grail Knight has been guarding the grail for "a very long time" and "the Grail cannot pass beyond the Great Seal, for that is the boundry". The invisible bridge, which The Warden and his group have to make solid in order to pass over the abyss is very possibly a reference to the "leap of faith" which Indiana Jones has to make (This is the third Trial of the Crusade). Too speculative. Seems to be more a similarity rather than an Easter egg. *If Leliana is present during the Broken Circle quest line, when encountering the Sloth demon she will dreamily murmur; "You have no power over me." This line is the crutch phrase of the Labyrinth. Generic phrase. * Leliana's archnemesis, Marjolaine, strongly resembles Jennifer Garner. That is fitting, considering her character from the series Alias, Sidney Bristow, was also an assassin. Personal opinion *The name of the dwarven capital Orzammar bears a resemblance to a World of Warcraft city, Orgrimmar. Any real connection between the two is entirely baseless; it is just amusing and frequently ''pointed out by enthusiastic players. ''Appears speculative, rather than deliberate. *The quest Correspondence Interruptus is a play on the words'' coitus interruptus'', which is a method of contraception otherwise known as the "pull-out" method. Clever word play rather than an Easter egg. *At one point when discussing Orlais fashion with Leliana, she will mention how one trend had shoes with soles "as big as bricks." This is obviously a nod to platform shoes, similarly fashionable a few years ago and just as impractical. I don't think it is obvious and even if it is, why is it an Easter egg? *Alistair's name, and his history of being associated with Mages may mean that his name is a nod to noted mage Aleister Crowley. Too speculative. Also Alistair dislikes mages *Weisshaupt Castle may be reference to Adam Weishaupt, founder of the Illuminati. May be better suited to trivia. I disagree. David Gaider uses the Dollar bill Pyramid Eye as his forum avatar on the BioWare Dragon Age Forums. This is a long known Illuminati symbol. Here's a link: http://social.bioware.com/100/ '' *At the battle for Ostegar, the demise of Duncan and King Cailan seem to be a nod to the play "Macbeth" in which Macbeth kills King Duncan. ''Not a strong enough similarity. -- I disagree with a lot of your assessments here. Trivia is important, so are internet memes - "Epic fail" might not be an technical easter egg, but it is purposely written in to have a double meaning for those of us who understand it. Yarly, LOLcats, Failboats; these are in-jokes purposely written in by developers that should be mentioned. Phrases, real life references, a whole chain quest purposely written to reference pop culture; these are valid easter eggs. I am also inclined to believe that Bioware is far more likely to make nods to the games they are proud of (Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect esp) than they are to make a reference to any other game, novel etc. I certainly don't want to split Trivia from Easter Eggs - it is far too difficult as it is to determine what goes here already without having to judge what is the difference between trivia and easter eggs. I think that list above is too subjective; you don't recognise the references personally, so you don't think it belongs here. This is why I was rather lenient about maybes, since perhaps it was simply a case of me not knowing it and if I did, I would be all "zomg, you're right in every way possible for a person to be right." A person who has never played Baldur's Gate might think we were all lying about Edwina, since only the name is the same. Oh and he wears red. How different is that exactly from the Zorro? There should be a system that so long as the person has brought all the right cards to the table, even if you don't recognise the source, you can't deny his place to be here. We have to be objective. --Lilkam 06:49, December 11, 2009 (UTC) :I thought we may have different ideas about what to include here, which is why I put it up for discussion rather than just deleting. I think if we want to maintain the quality of this page we can't be overly lenient. I put Zorro there because it seemed a stretch, but more than that it seems to have caused argument and anything that has a disclaimer at the end seemed an option to go. As to the others, I am familiar with a lot of the source material for which is why I felt confident about listing them. The links suggested seemed tenuous and being familiar with the source material, I'm not sure if anything can be done to make the above points seem convincing Easter eggs. I agree with your last point, they must be convincing to people unfamiliar to the source too. For things I'm unfamiliar with, Aleister Crowley and Adam Weishaupt for example, I remain unconvinced that the names were used as a deliberate in-joke. :However, I feel strongly that we need to define the difference between an Easter Egg and trivia (deliberate in-joke vs. passing similarity or inspiration). Researching Easter eggs, (I never thought I'd be doing that) humour seems to a the key similarity. So I would say an Easter egg is a clear reference to something outside the game, which is designed to make the discoverer of given egg smile. Yes it will be a hassle to police, but many pages already have a trivia section and if we allow all trivia to be posted here the page will just be too long and contain repeat information. :Another option if we can't work out a workable definition, would be to cut way back and only allow Easter eggs referring to BioWare, and move this back to the DA:O page. On the whole they seem less contentious and it might save some drama, though I'd much prefer it if we could get this working. Loleil 10:38, December 11, 2009 (UTC) However, this is a page about Easter Eggs, not a trivia page. I very much agree with this assessment. Some of these should be moved. --Selty 04:53, December 13, 2009 (UTC) I'm more inclined to simply merge the two or we're asking for way too much editorial management on this one page. Unless we get developer backing for every Easter Egg, everything is under speculation; I really did not want to police this page so hard so that other people cannot add their views without having to march past a committee first; it's just too, well- unfriendly. But if you limit everything down to only "Easter Eggs and Most Definitely Not Trivia" it becomes alarming for people to speak at all. I really only want people posting on this page to be concerned over the accuracy of their input, not whether or not it's qualified to join the ranks under our strict rules. --Lilkam 04:11, December 15, 2009 (UTC) :The page is becoming more messy as it is and I don't think it can just be left to include every bit of potential trivia, but I do want people to feel welcome to contribute. Maybe an option would be to add a hidden note in the page? Something like "Please only add an Easter egg to this page if you are certain that it is a deliberate in-joke added by the developers. Do not add speculation." That might be a start at least. Loleil 04:40, December 15, 2009 (UTC) KoTOR I'v noticed quite a few references to Knights of the old republic. Such as asking for a staute built in your honour, which was in both KoToR 1+2. There was some others...but I can't remember them..:l Sir Moose 14:52, December 12, 2009 (UTC) :The statue isn't that rare an occurrence, unfortunately: you also get one in Oblivion, for example. --vom 16:04, December 12, 2009 (UTC) A very chewed and moist book The reference to the "constant clicking over ones' head" may also be a fourth wall-breaking quote about the tapping of the keyboard and mouse, might it not? There is another fourth wall breaking sequence in the conversation between two NPCs behind the Mage's Collective representative at Lake Calenhad. Morrigan's Name I've removed the following: * Morrigan may be a reference to Morgan le Fay, a character in Arthurian legends who is also a powerful sorceress and is also speculated to be connected to the Irish goddess Morrigan From the literature section because it's not only self-professed speculation, but speculation based on ignorance. First, the name 'Morrigan' was confirmed by David Gaider to have come from a friend of his. Second, 'Morrigan' and 'Morgan le Fay' are not connected, and their names have completely different meanings, coming from different branches of the Celtic language group as they do. Sounding alike is not a good enough reason to assume a connection (wow connection sounds like erection I wonder if they're the same?!).Fimbria 02:22, December 15, 2009 (UTC) Easter Eggs? Or Annotations? I always thought an "Easter Egg" was something hidden in the game that you had to find - like the various Easter Eggs in Sierra's Leisure Suit Larry series. In fact, the definition of a software Easter Egg according to Wikipedia is :Easter eggs are messages, videos, graphics, sound effects, or an unusual change in program behavior that sometimes occur in a software program in response to some undocumented set of commands, mouse clicks, keystrokes or other stimuli intended as a joke or to display program credits. Most, if not all, of the examples on this page are simply things that happen in the normal course of the game that people have decided bear some resemblance to some other media/story/game (intertextuality) or some kind of homage to another text - more like that annotations for the discword series you can read at http://www.lspace.org/books/apf/index.html. I think this page is a misnomer. Genitivi's assistant. I can think of another old bald man, (TV character), with a devoted assistant called Weylon. A bit vague I know, but still possible he was named in his honour, or maybe as an in house gag that stuck. Locking Page + Carth Reference Easter Eggs can be seen as subjective, but there are some things that are simply too vague to be considered a reference. In any case, I kind of want to lock this page as it gets a lot of edits and half of them are not easter eggs. Secondly, Alistair sometimes shouts, "Down you go!" in battle. Carth Onasi said the same thing and it feels like a reference to me.--Selty 02:11, December 20, 2009 (UTC) :I think the problem here is that, for most entries, we cannot prove that something is an Easter egg, but at the same time we cannot prove that something is not. Until we come up with a definitive set of rules, preventing unregistered users from editing may not solve the larger problem. Loleil 02:35, December 20, 2009 (UTC) ::To return to the previous discussion about what's fit for inclusion, I think I'd be inclined to say that it has to have a direct connection with the thing in question, for example the Mass Effect "lift" Easter egg referencing Shepard. To also use my own "this seems to be more than a coincidence" regarding Wade & Herren and Fallout 3's Flak & Shrapnel, ultimately I'd have to concede that it's not really much of an Easter egg in spite of what I consider to be quite strong similarities: because other than those coincidences, there's nothing linking them. If someone from Bioware says "yes, it's a reference to FO3" that would be a different matter, but unless that happens, it stays out. Likewise, I think that similar "it seems a bit like..." entries should also be removed unless something more concrete is forthcoming. ::I'm half inclined to suggest a separate page for "maybes" to keep them away from the Easter eggs, but it would become just as unmanageable. Maybe it should be locked and an "Easter Egg admin" appointed! No, I'm not volunteering for the job. --vom 02:55, December 20, 2009 (UTC) :::The references to other BioWare games are certainly the most clear cut. So tempting to make it all about them! Using a direct connection is better, but I'd be concerned that people would think "Someone says this in a movie. Someone says this in DA. Therefore it's an Easter egg", but I think if we can make clear it that people should only add things they are sure about, that should help. I'm happy to keep an eye on the page I just want to make sure we're all working off the same rules. Loleil 03:08, December 20, 2009 (UTC) ::::How is this for a mission statement for the page? ::::::"The Easter egg page is not a place for speculation, nor is it a place to post seemingly unconnected similarities. An Easter egg should only be added if there a strong reason (such as developer quotes, or multiple references to one source) to think it is a deliberate reference to an external source. If something is not a deliberate reference to an outside source, but is still an interesting piece of information, it can be added as trivia to the relevant page." ::::I think it still needs more work, but I want to get something where if a comment needs to be removed we can say "It breaks the rules", rather than "It seemed like a stretch". Thoughts? Comments? Loleil 04:57, December 20, 2009 (UTC) :::::Seems like a good approach to me. I think it really hinges on the "no speculation" aspect: however obvious something seems to any given contributor, if it's ultimately speculative, it probably shouldn't be added. Moving other items of trivia to their relevant pages would hopefully make things easier to manage, and may well make it easier to differentiate reasonable probabilities and flights of fancy. :::::There's always the 50,000 volt option, too. --vom 05:35, December 20, 2009 (UTC) ::::::I don't think developers who are now probably working on BioWare's next project or the DLCs will ever find the time to confirm Easter Eggs in any wikis so most of the Easter Eggs, no matter if they appear on this wiki or elsewhere, never get confirmed. Also, the Easter Egg (software) definition of Wikipedia -- 'Easter eggs are messages, videos, graphics, sound effects, or an unusual change in program behavior that sometimes occur in a software program in response to some undocumented set of commands, mouse clicks, keystrokes or other stimuli intended as a joke or to display program credits.' -- is too restrictive. In my experience, forums and wikis dedicated to games have already moved beyond that definition, and use the more relaxed Easter Egg (media) definition: 'A virtual Easter egg is an intentional hidden message, in-joke or feature in an object such as a movie, book, CD, DVD, computer program, web page or video game.' (The emphasis is on the 'in-joke' part of the definition.) ::::::There are quite a few well-documented Easter Eggs in other computer games, such as the 'Winstone Wolfe' NPC or the 'Jhordy Lapforge' NPC in World of Warcraft. (The reference to Star Trek in the latter case is made even more clear by the presence of a goblin 'transporter' that makes it an obvious in-joke.). I think such Easter Eggs qualify as 'being beyond reasonable doubt'. Trivia is usually a collection of tid-bits, such as 'the color of Leliana's robe during the final ceremony', or 'the number of ex-Star Trek actors contributing as voice actors', etc. An unconfirmed and speculative reference to an external IP does not qualify, in my opinion, as trivia. I think the most reasonable way to proceed would be to split the Easter Eggs section into two parts: Easter Eggs (obvious) and Easter Eggs (speculative). Anything that isn't backed up by quotes/pointers to the external source and can be tagged as 'guesswork' should go into the second section. Desyndra 09:42, December 20, 2009 (UTC) :::::A lot of the easter eggs have actually been confirmed by developers already. If you were a forum regular before the game came out, then I would say you wouldn't even need a reference, as the devs comment regularly on the forums. In any case, I think most of the easter eggs have been found out. I placed some of the points into other articles as trivia, as well. I think it is safe to say a lot of the points we have right now are solid. --Selty 12:10, December 20, 2009 (UTC) Are you able to add in some of those references Selty? Anything to give this page an air of credibility has got to be a good thing! Loleil 02:31, December 21, 2009 (UTC) Reaper's Vestments I believe that this is a nod to Reaper the Hero of Skill in Fable 2, bear with my theory and I'm underlining the major hints. The Description reads: Reaper was an apostate was unorthodox which can be a synonym for apostate mage who evaded the templars evaded Lucien and his goons for a long time for many years before being captured. Part villain, part folk hero, it is said he led a charmed life avoiding dangers that would have killed lesser men. If you look at the underlined topics it seems quite obvious that the developers didn't want to give a direct reference to Fable 2 so they changed it up a bit. Besides DAO's Reaper being a mage, this seems like a description for Fable's Reaper himself. --FLaSHBaCK HaSH 21:52, December 20, 2009 (UTC) I really think some of these are completely speculative. I am going to put a few in their articles as trivia. --Selty 05:54, December 21, 2009 (UTC) spirit shard *Werewolves, when killed, will drop spirit shards, a refference to the anime "Inuyasha". the spirit shards are dropped by various mobs no only werewolves, and it can be a reference to inuyasha or to others series or games (WoW). im quiting this because it is speculative. --Makoto DK 17:22, December 21, 2009 (UTC) Ogre/Duncan encounter at Ostagar vs Black Gate battle in LoTR movie *During the cutscene that plays after the Warden lights the beacon at Ostagar, the king battles and slays several minor darkspawn before finding himself the unfortunate target of an ogre. This scene bears a striking similarity to the battle of the Black Gate from the Return of the King; King Cailan as Aragorn, the Ogre as a Troll, and even the newly-lit tower as Sauron's Eye overlooking the battle. :This is speculative. I qualify as a frequent-watcher of the LoTR movie trilogy and for me the similarity is vague at best. Desyndra 10:03, December 31, 2009 (UTC) Another KotOR quote i have noticed in the above talk pages that alastair said "down you go!" in battle diolouge. well i noticed that sten says "it is silenced" after battle, much like the handmaiden's phrase, "i will silence this one."Rolan Zevran 00:19, January 9, 2010 (UTC) :Speculative. In my opinion it would be extremely difficult to prove that it is intentional. Desyndra 09:39, January 9, 2010 (UTC) Literature - Reference to Harry Potter *During the mage origins there is a woman who is teaching three children in the apprentice library who resemble Harry Potter, Ron Weasley and Hermione Granger. :Another vague similarity. Hermione is blonde, the apprentice girl has black hair. If it were really a nod to Harry Potter, the correct answer would be given by the girl. Also, I can't remember Ron Weasley ever expressing his belief that girls are not as good at magic as boys. Surely, if it had been an intentional reference to Harry Potter, the similarity would be more striking. Desyndra 11:37, January 9, 2010 (UTC) ::Tricky one, this. What's curious is that I read the new edit about half an hour after passing the area in question for the first time and thinking "there's something Harry Potter-esque about this, but I can't put my finger on it." This may well have illustrated what got me thinking... but unfortunately I agree that even if true, without anything more solid, it is a rather tenuous likeness (though I thought Hermione did indeed have brown hair... just not as brown). My own inclination is that it might be a point of interest on the Mage Origins page itself... though on balance I think I'm probably against that too: not in itself, but because it'd set a precedent for increasingly unlikely similarities to be added, as tends to happen. --vom 11:52, January 9, 2010 (UTC) :::Yes, the red-headed boy is quite passable as Ron. If you click on him a few times, he will ask about abominations but he'll have a hard time pronouncing the word properly. The girl says that she likes ponies, I found no reference in my Harry Potter books that would confirm Hermione's attraction to ponies. As to her hair colour, you are right, if you check the Harry Potter wiki (Hermione Granger), you can see Hermione's hair colour in the pictures and the HP Wikia says her hair is brown, but I think it is closer to blond. If it was a nod, it has turned out to be a really ambiguous one. Desyndra 12:17, January 9, 2010 (UTC) Superman reference - Meteor Sword Another Superman reference you may choose to deem worthy: late in the game, Gorim (Denerim's Market District) sells a Silverite greatsword named "Meteor Sword" with the description "Forged from the last remnant of another world, this blade feels quite... super." -- 17:46, January 9, 2010 (UTC) Harry, Ron, and Hermoine I see above there was some discussion in whether the thre children in the apprentice's quarters were really a parody of Harry, Ron and Hermoine. Well, besides just looking like the trio, (besides the girl) "Harry" says "The Circle is so much better than the farm!" Refrencing Harry's bad childhood. "Ron" Mispronounces abomonations, because he is not a smart lad, but the real discussion is hermoine. She says learning fire magic is fun, in the movies she is eager to learn. She says, I like ponies, because in the movies she likes the hippogriff. I think that is what it is referring to.--Rolan Zevran 02:03, January 11, 2010 (UTC) : Still too speculative. The girl may say 'fire magic is fun' because she likes that specific school of magic, and not because she is eager to learn. The pony -> hippogriff argument is also shaky. There are griffons, albeit long extinct, in the DA lore, if they really wanted to add a more solid pointer, the girl could have been given a line like 'I love griffons, it's a shame that they are no longer around.' All the things you quote in support of the 'Harry Potter parody' theory can be interpreted differently. Desyndra 18:22, January 13, 2010 (UTC) The cake reference The page gives credit to the game Portal, but really, Harry Dean Anderson's character, Jack O'Neil, from Stargate SG-1 is probably the inspiration for both. He was always fixated on cake. LVTDUDE 20:47, January 11, 2010 (UTC) Knight-Commander Tavish A subtle reference to the once coach of the Edmonton Oilers: Craig MacTavish. DAO was made in Edmonton Kolgrim - Star Wars ref? When you argue about what you could get from him in the Ruined Temple, one of the last sentences before making any decisions is "I have a bad feeling about this." which is... quite well-known from SW in my opinion. TBC being an egg though. Auriaya 22:37, January 22, 2010 (UTC) Better suited for Trivia instead of Easter Eggs? In my opinion the following entries belong to the Trivia section instead of the Easter Eggs. *The name of the world in Dragon Age, Thedas, is an acronym originally used on the official forums to refer to the at the time un-named setting. It stands for The Dragon Age Setting, or TheDAS. *Every so often when Oghren is spoken to in Camp, rather then open up the dialogue menu, he will laugh and say 'Asschabs!'. This is a eleborate in-joke of David Gaider, who after the long hours of writing Dragon Age, created the 'ASSociation of CHAir Butt Sufferers'. See: Sheryl Chee's Blog : These are not references to some external lore. They are valid entries but I think they belong to the game lore, and therefore they do not qualify as an Easter Egg. Desyndra 12:40, January 23, 2010 (UTC) "Ooh, shiny!" more likely from Joss Whedon The phrase "Ooh, shiny!", uttered by Shale when she gets a particularly nice gem, seems rather more likely to be a nudge to Buffy the Vampire Slayer. The word "shiny" is by itself a famous Whedonism, and Buffy says this exact phrase about a demon-possessed but nice-looking sword, which she unwisely takes home with her. : It may also be a nod to World of Warcraft. In the Northrend expansion in the area called "Scholazar Basin' you can get an Oracle companion who refers to gems and treasures as "Shinies". Unless we can get an official confirmation, this entry is ambiguous enough to be tagged as "highly speculative". But more opinions on the matter would be welcome. Desyndra 18:19, January 25, 2010 (UTC) Owain and Bartleby In the mage's tower, when we speak to Owain, he says "I would prefer not to die". It's an allusion to Herman Melville's "Bartleby, The Scrivener", where the title hero responses to everything: "I would prefer not to". : I don't think it is such a rarely used expression that you can tag it as an 'obvious' pointer to a certain piece of literature. If Owain had used that phrase repeatedly, we might have a clue, but this is not the case. Desyndra 10:55, February 3, 2010 (UTC) Well, I guess it only make sense after reading a novel or just knowing what it is about. It's a very famous quote, if you search for it in Google, there are links only to pages connected with Melville. Bartleby, is a quiet, unassuming, steady worker, who looks like he had no emotions at all, but suddenly starts to disagree. For me and my friends it was quite obvious allusion, but now I see it may be not.